【键盘侠】巴特勒强于乔治？|印第安纳成回忆 断腿之后无PG
It's over... Jimmy Butler is better than Paul George and no one should argue otherwise
别争了……巴特勒就是比乔治更厉害，其他都没啥好扯的了。
Jimmy Butler shows up when it matters, can make plays for his team and is a better leader. If you take Paul George over Jimmy at this point, I don't know what to say to you. What else does Jimmy have to do to prove he's better? He outplays Paul George literally every post season.
Replace PG with Butler on the Heat and they get way worse. Replace Butler with PG on the Clips and they're currently in the WCF.
巴特勒在关键时刻可以挺声而出，为自己的球队创造机会，而且是个更好的领袖。如果你到现在还觉得乔治比巴特勒强，那我也不知道说你啥好了。巴特勒还要怎么做才能证明他更强呢？基本每次季后赛的表现他都优于乔治。
你把乔治和巴特勒互换，那热火就会差很多，那现在进西决的就是快船。
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[–]Bulls ClaymoresRevenge 127 指標 2 天前
They're different players, at one point I hoped we could get them both in Chicago. But they have different styles PG is known as a better shooter. But Jimmy is a better playmaker and defender. I think having to cut your nose on defense really helps you grind out those hard wins. Jimmy had that in spades when Thibs had him play those low scoring tough defensive games.
公牛球迷：他俩是不同的球员，我一度希望芝加哥能同时得到他俩。不过他们风格迥异，乔治长于投射。但巴特勒的组织和防守更好。我觉得吧，在防守端放下身段真的有助于你用汗水帮助球队拼下那些硬仗。当初锡伯杜让巴特勒打出那些低得分强防守的比赛时，他就不怕苦不怕累。
[–]Grizzlies tc1988 581 指標 1 天前
This whole argument is based on the assumption that players never get better / worse. Players aren't static. They get better or worse every year.
Jimmy Butler was better this year, especially in the playoffs.
Paul George was much better last year.
灰熊球迷：关于他俩的所有争论都要建立在球员状态不会出现起伏的基础之上。但球员终归不是静态发展的。他们每个赛季不是变强就是变弱。巴特勒本赛季打得更好，尤其是在季后赛。
而乔治上赛季的表现要远胜于他。
[–]Warriors 707royalty 116 指標 1 天前
Exactly. If your asking me who I want today based on what we've seen lately, it's Jimmy. Doesn't mean PG is trash tho...
勇士球迷：确实。如果你问我现在更喜欢谁，基于咱们近期的观察，那就是吉米仔。不过这也不等于乔治就很垃圾……
[–]JayJax_23 1139 指標 2 天前
PG is weird like he was more clutch/reliable in Indiana 2013-2014
乔治真的很怪，13/14赛季在印第安纳那会儿就更加大心脏也更为可靠。
[–]Raptors banned4shrooms 73 指標 1 天前
Indiana PG was the complete opposite of current PG. He played so well against bron in those playoffs. Played well with pressure
猛龙球迷：印第安纳的乔治是现如今乔治的完全对立面。他当初在季后赛对上詹姆斯打得是真好啊，而且不受压力影响。
[–]midlohokie73 802 指標 2 天前
there was much less pressure then, they were not supposed to beat Miami so he was playing with house money. When the pressure got turned up for him as a go to guy, he's wilted over and over
他当时所遭受的压力要远远小得多啊，毕竟那支步行者本就不具备击败热火的实力，所以他当时打球也就是以小博大嘛。一旦压力上升到需要他独当一面的时候，次次都蔫了吧唧的。
[–]king_chill 613 指標 2 天前
To be fair he also snapped his leg in half around that time
有一说一哈，他当时腿都快折成两截了。
[–]Warriors iamacoomerama 181 指標 2 天前
Hasn’t been the same since busting his leg imo. I know he had a career year in okc but it seems like he drives less and less aggressively when he does
勇士球迷：我觉得那次重伤过后他就再也不是从前那个乔治了。我知道他在雷霆打得有声有色，但他的突破貌似越来越缺乏攻击性。
[–]Heat clear831 109 指標 1 天前
Yea his leg now his shoulder issues. He isnt the same player
热火球迷：是啊，腿伤之后现在又是肩伤，物是人非事事休。
[–]crawlingchip 360 指標 1 天前
George did have that awesome season with OKC where he was arguably a legit MVP candidate for the bulk of the year but he got injured again and wasn't the same after.
乔治在雷霆那个赛季打得确实抢眼，一度甚至名副其实的MVP候选人啊，可他又伤了，之后就没然后了。
[–]0marscoming 148 指標 1 天前
Imo he was a top 3 candidate that year. Elite scoring + a legit case for DPOY.
我觉得那个赛季的乔治就是MVP前三候选人。顶级得分能力，再加上冲击DPOY的强势表现。
[–]rowthecow 132 指標 2 天前
Pg seems to have lost interest in the game after his injury.
自打受伤过后，乔治貌似就失去了对比赛的兴趣。
[–]Pacers Obi2 170 指標 1 天前
It’s all mental. At Indiana he was an underdog. The city supported him. He was able to learn from Granger. He decided he wanted more. He wanted big lights and an easy route to a ring. That’s when people started calling him a snake. He was. You see it on his social media. He just can’t take people not being 100% on his side like the easy days in Indy. It’s all mental.
步行者球迷：他就是意志力薄弱。在印第安纳，他总是处于相对弱势的一方，整个城市都在支持他。他还可以向格兰杰学习。但他还想得到更多，他想要大舞台，一条更为简单的夺冠之路。就是从那时起，大家开始骂他叛徒。他确实是。你看看他的社交媒体就知道了。当生活不再像印第安纳时期那样轻松简单时，当大家不再100%力挺他时，他就没法接受了。这就是单纯的意志力问题。
[–]Bish_Fantastic 36 指標 1 天前
I’ll admit to not “getting” what Jimmy brought to the table until this year. I thought he was good, not great, & was bad for the locker room. Goes to show you what happens when you get a great personality fit between player & team culture.
我得承认，在这个赛季之前，我确实没能“明白”巴特勒的真材实料。我还以为他只是还可以，不算很强，而且不利于更衣室团结。但是他用实力告诉大家，当这个球员的强大个性十分贴合球队文化时，会有怎样的故事。
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[–]bbqyak 5041 指標 2 天前
This is why it's ridiculous when people try to pretend intangibles don't exist. The separation we just witnessed between Butler and PG has little to do with skill. It's all in the mind. PG arguably SHOULD be the better player. But Butler's leadership skills, hustle, attitude, etc. Dude is who you want playing next to you on the court.
所以说，那些总喜欢对隐形特质视若无睹的人是很荒谬的。我们所看到的巴特勒和乔治之前的区别其实和能力关系并不大。就是脑子的区别。按理说乔治应该是更强的，可巴特勒的领袖力、拼劲儿和态度等等都占据上风。他这种球员就是你心目中的队友。
[–]NBA Chigurrh 10 指標 1 天前
Those intangibles result in tangible results though....like playoff wins.
可那些隐形特质可以导致实际结果……比如季后赛的胜利。
[–]gana04 16 指標 1 天前
I always gave the edge to PG, and he does have better individual stats but yeah, when it matters Jimmy shows up. I would pick Jimmy today
我以前一直都站乔治这边，而且他的个人数据更好看，可是，关键时刻JB更硬。要论现在我会pick吉米仔。
[–]Raptors Kizz3r 35 指標 1 天前
Its why raptor fans love lowry even if he is in a shooting slump. Dude does everything else on the court, and tries his hardest to win.
猛龙球迷：所以啊，哪怕洛瑞的投篮一天不如一天，我们龙蜜依然深爱着他。这老哥在场上基本啥都干，总是尽最大努力争取胜利。
[–]junkit33 1115 指標 2 天前
Yep - intangibles are real. George absolutely has more raw talent than Butler, but Butler is completely locked in right now and brings all the things you can't quantify to the table.
Marcus Smart is another guy in the same mold. I'm not sure there are really 25 better basketball players in the NBA than Smart, but if you want to sit there and analyze stats and skills on paper then you probably wouldn't even put him in the Top 50 unless you heavily value defense.
没错，无形特质是真实存在的。纯身体天赋而论，乔治肯定是胜过巴特勒的。可现在的巴特勒完全是子弹上膛，他可以提供所有你无法量化的东西。
斯玛特就是这种人。联盟是否真的存在25个比斯玛特更强的球员我还不确定，可你如果只想坐着以纸面数据和技术来分析比较，或许你都不会把斯玛特排进联盟前五十，除非你非常注重防守的价值。
[–][HOU] Jonny Flynn BigDKane 75 指標 1 天前
Tatum and Brown might be Allstars, but Marcus Smart will get his number retired in Boston if he plays his whole career there.
火箭球迷：或许塔图姆和布朗都是全明星，但斯玛特如果一直在波士顿效力的话，他的球衣会被退役的。
[–]Lakers DireGambit 263 指標 2 天前
Guys like Smart are harder to find than superstars.
湖人球迷：像斯玛特这种球员比超巨更加难找。
[–]Bulls eternal_nova 27 指標 1 天前
I think it’s pretty arguable that PG even has more talent than Jimmy. It isn’t just Jimmy’s murder competitiveness that makes him valuable. He’s a damn good multi-faceted player too. He can shoot decently, he’s a great finisher, he can iso well, he can make smart reads within an offense. And then yeah, on top of that he can take over a game when needed.
Even without intangibles I’d still rather have Butler than PG.
公牛球迷：乔治的天赋强于巴特勒，我觉得这是在理的。但是巴特勒的价值不仅仅局限于他的逆境竞争力，他尼玛也是个很强的多面向球员啊。他的投射还不错，终结能力很强，单打也不赖，进攻时也能做出聪明的决策。没错，在必要时刻他还能接管比赛。
即便没有那些隐形特质，我还是觉得巴特勒强于乔治。
[–]Lakers Trumppered 969 指標 2 天前
I mean you could say that about the entire Clippers/Nuggets series.
Clippers on paper are the more talented team. They should have for sure won this series.
But Nuggets had every intangible in their favor.
湖人球迷：我觉得快船打掘金那整轮系列赛就可以证明隐形特质的真实存在。
纸面而言，快船更有天赋，他们肯定是应该拿下这轮系列赛的。
但是掘金的每项隐形特质都优于对手。
[–]Nuggets FukeLalknor 92 指標 1 天前
I disagree on the talent part, I really do. This just shows how underappreciated the Nuggets still are and how little people actually know our roster.
We are a great team, talent wise. And we are still playing without one KEY player, in Will Barton. Denver is up there.
掘金球迷：天赋一说我表示反对，真心反对。你这话说明我掘金依然被大家小瞧了，更说明真正熟悉我们阵容的人非常少。
就天赋而言，我们是很强的。而且我们还少了一个关键人物威尔-巴顿。丹佛没在怕的。
[–]Heat AnCo18 32 指標 1 天前
I agree, I had the series going to 6/7 and everybody clowned me for it. Nuggets roster is stacked, Jokic is a superstar (especially in the playoffs) and with Murray's level of play, Nuggets were equal on talent with the Clippers.
热火球迷：我同意，我之前就觉得这轮系列赛会打到六七场，当时人人都嘲笑我。掘金阵中人才济济好嘛，约基奇是个超巨（尤其是季后赛），再加上穆雷这种发挥，掘金的天赋是不输快船的。
[–]Clippers aleph4 38 指標 1 天前
They also had the mental edge, but Nuggets are and have been a great team (for a few years now).
快船球迷：掘金的精神力也更强，不过他们一直都是一支强队（好几年了）。
[–]Warriors ShadowClawz 636 指標 2 天前
Synergy >>> Talent abundance
勇士球迷：协同作用远大于天赋溢出。
[–]BigOzymandias 26 指標 1 天前
True and it was proven before by 2004 Pistons and 2011 Mavericks
确实，04年的活塞和11年的小牛就证实过这一点
[–]Timberwolves thomki 526 指標 1 天前
thats what i remember about the pre KD warriors. cutting, quick passing, team ball. defense. half these superstars think yall won through step back iso 3's all game
森林狼球迷：这就让我想起了杜兰特之前的勇士。空切、快速传导球、团队配合、防守。但是有不少超巨却以为勇士是靠不断的单打撤步三分夺冠的。
[–]Knicks Dddddddfried 53 指標 1 天前
Thanks in large part to Mr. Intangible himself Draymond Green
尼克斯球迷：那支勇士的成功很大一部分要归功于“隐形特质”先生追梦-格林。
[–]Warriors bilyl 309 指標 1 天前
The team worked so well because everyone had the “green light” to take a good shot and were held accountable to it. It degenerated in 2019 because nobody outside of Curry/KD/Klay could make a FG during the playoffs.
勇士球迷：那支勇士运转得太好了，因为人人都有出手的自由度，并为之承担后果。但是这种策略到了19年退化了，因为在季后赛里，除了库里、阿杜和克莱，其他人都进不了球。
[–]Thromkai 748 指標 1 天前
Butler got the perfect number 2 floor general in Dragic, too. Dude will not let the Heat quit on him either. His body language is positive and he's always in his team's face about plays and keeping them in.
巴特勒在场上还有德拉季奇这个完美的二号司令官。这家伙也绝不会让球队背离巴特勒。他的肢体语言很积极，而且总能贯彻球队的战术。
[–]Historical-Author-49 168 指標 1 天前
I've been saying it about the Clippers in my post-mortem assessment, they're sorely missing a floor general. Imagine them with a Dragic, a Rondo, a Lowry. Completely different team, IMO. They need a steady hand to run the offense, Pat Beverly isn't that guy.
我对快船的“验尸报告”里就一直坚持这个观点，他们急缺一名场上司令官。假设他们有德拉季奇、隆多或者洛瑞这种球员……那就完全是不同的球队。他们需要一个坚定的领导去梳理进攻，贝弗利可不是这种人。
[–]Yacht Club DacoLordo 67 指標 1 天前
Pat Bev is like a homeless man's version of Tony Allen. Good defense, but doesn't give you playmaking or scoring like a point guard should. Swap in Rondo another guy who still can't really score but can pass and play D, and they definitely win the series.
贝弗利就是个流浪汉版本的托尼-阿伦。虽然防守好，但是他作为控卫却无法提供组织和得分能力。你把他换成隆多看看，虽说还是不能得分，但是能传能防啊，快船肯定能拿下掘金。
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[–][MIA] Glen Rice crashingtheboards 954 指標 2 天前
I don't know man, seeing that third and fourth quarters in G7 showed that no one on that Clips team had heart to play. I think Jimmy would have been frustrated, a la Twolves, of having to carry his team on his back. Jimmy would have had to slow that game down and been yelling at everyone to work harder.
There was no creativity going down the stretch. You're down by double digits in the fourth and you keep throwing up 3s? Why? Go and grind it out. Make plays.
热火球迷：搞不清楚啊，看了快船G7的下半场之后就感觉，他们全都没有心思打球。要是换做森林狼的巴特勒，他会很沮丧的，因为他得把球队扛在肩上。他将被迫降低比赛节奏，咆哮着吼醒队友。
快船G7关键时刻毫无创造力，第四节落后十分居然还沉迷三分？为啥啊？冲进去拼啊。打出战术啊。
[–]Kundrew1 427 指標 2 天前
They had plenty of open 3s its not like they were all bad shots. They just couldn't make anything.
他们有大把的空位三分机会，倒也不全是瞎投。就是进不了球。
[–]jaytee158 429 指標 1 天前
Correct, PG taking that corner 3 was a good shot by any standard. Hitting the backboard is more about the moment than anything.
没错，乔治那个底角三分怎么说都是次好机会。但是他却能砸到篮板上……
[–]Raptors BUNSHICHl 31 指標 1 天前
Difference between inviting contact and being scared of contact, Butler also has a better handle as well so he can make more things happen along with his superior playmaking. When PGs shot is not dropping he's not giving you much on offense. Both are excellent defenders though.
猛龙球迷：这就是制造身体接触和躲避接触的区别了。巴特勒的控球也更厉害，所以他的组织能力可以创造更多的可能性。乔治手感不行的时候，你就不能对他的进攻有过高的指望。不过他俩的防守都很强。
[–]jewboydan 14 指標 1 天前
eh idk him and akwhi were so soft that day. both shooting terribly and they each drove twice maybe?(probably exaggerating but you get my point). YOU GUYS ARE SUPERSTARS, GET TO THE LINE!! couldnt believe it
呃，他和小卡G7都打得好软啊。两人都手感稀烂，貌似都只往内线冲了两次？（可能有夸张，但你懂我意思）。你俩可是超巨啊！！造杀伤啊！！简直不敢相信。
[–]Knicks UnableComb 166 指標 1 天前
There was a point late in G7 where the outcome was essentially decided by PG not taking the game seriously. During an attempted comeback in the 4th, he got pissed at Jerami Grant and kept whining, trying to talk trash etc. This went on for a good 20 seconds, across the full length of the court, and progressed to such an extent that PG completely ignored his own man in the corner to turn and glare/jaw at Grant (who had the ball 10ft away). After several seconds of being ignored, his assignment proceeded to stroll to the rim, receive the easy pass and score.
Instantly went from an easy stop and potential comeback push to feeling unwinnable. Dumbest part, Grant was unbothered and seemed to be completely ignoring him the whole time.
尼克斯球迷：G7末段有个回合其实可以侧面反映出，比赛结果很大程度上是由乔治的疏忽导致的。第四节快船尝试追分的时候，他被格兰特惹毛了，不停哔哔，还想喷垃圾话。大概持续了20多秒钟，跨越了整个球场，以至于乔治居然完全忽视了那个躲在底角的自己的防守人，因为他全程都在跟格兰特（10码外持球）较劲。被放空几秒之后，他的防守人溜到篮下，接球轻松上篮得分。
本来可以轻松阻断对手这次进攻、进而发起反扑，结果让球队士气一蹶不振。最蠢的是，人格兰特丝毫不受干扰，貌似全程都无视乔治。
[–]Trail Blazers shrimpflyrice 31 指標 1 天前
Funny that they were teammates last year too.
开拓者球迷：有意思的是，他俩上赛季还是队友呢
[–]Warriors SharksFanAbroad 351 指標 2 天前
Pretty crazy that Kawhi, Jimmy, Giannis, Dray, Gobert, Marc and Jokic were all outside of the lottery. All in the last decade except Marc. Just crossed my mind randomly.
勇士球迷：想想也是疯狂，小卡、巴特勒、字母哥、追梦、戈贝尔、小加和约基奇这些人居然全都不是乐透秀。除了小加都是近十年选秀里冒出来的。我就突然想到这个。
[–]Heat CorrineontheCobb 172 指標 1 天前
Bad organizations (that tend to get top picks) plus bad luck tends make things like that more likely to happen.
Meanwhile good organizations tend to both draft well and develop players who in other places would be ruined.
热火球迷：烂队（容易拿好签），再加上霉运，就容易让这种事发生。
与此同时呢，强队一般既有好眼光也能培养球员，这些人要是换个地方大概就被毁了。
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[–]Eric_T_Meraki 8813 指標 2 天前*
Wasn't Jimmy one of the guys that Kawhi called but turned him down to play together?
小卡去年不是招募过巴特勒又被拒绝了吗？
[–]Raptors jps78 5862 指標 2 天前
Kawhi asked KD first, then Jimmy and then forced the PG trade
猛龙球迷：小卡先找的杜兰特，然后是巴特勒，接着才强行推动了乔治那笔交易。
[–]Raptors WannaBeTycoon 55 指標 2 天前
Harden beal and Kyrie too
猛龙球迷：还有哈登、比尔和欧文吧
[–]Raptors mexican_mystery_meat 103 指標 2 天前
PG was literally the fifth option for Kawhi.
猛龙球迷：乔治当时也就是小卡的第五选择
[–]Lakers josephkristian 14 指標 1 天前
He was plan P.
湖人球迷：他是P计划。
[–]hzs1000 141 指標 1 天前
Thunder should retire Kawhi’s number
雷霆应该把小卡的球衣退役。
[–]Thunder iCarpet 7740 指標 2 天前
Thank you Kawhi for saving my franchise
雷霆球迷：感谢小卡拯救了我的主队
[–]Knicks firstbreathOOC 38 指標 1 天前
Will be fun to see what you guys do with all these draft picks. If the CP3 rumors are true, we might be offering even more (including another clippers 1st this year).
尼克斯球迷：我倒很想看看你雷手握这么多选秀签能干点啥。如果保罗离队的谣言是真的，或许我尼还可以多给你们点（包括另一个快船这赛季的首轮签）。
[–]Thunder heavy_hiker 40 指標 1 天前
Cp3 would be good for any team, but the knicks could really use a steady hand and a good teacher for the young dudes.
雷霆球迷：保罗去任何队都是很有用的，不过尼克斯还真是需要这么一个坚定的领导和良师去指导年轻人。
[–]Lakers TetsuoS2 1089 指標 1 天前
If CP3 keeps playing at this level someone will definitely pay the high price of the remaing two years to take him off the Thunder and into a playoff run.
湖人球迷：如果保罗继续这种发挥，那肯定会有人花高价从雷霆接收他剩下的两年合同，再冲击一把季后赛。
[–]Pelicans zacree 112 指標 1 天前
CP3 is the youngin' whisperer. Anybody with a group of talented but inexperienced younger players would be better with CP3 than whoever they have at point guard. As long as they listen to the point God, they'll be better and get better.
鹈鹕球迷：保罗就是年轻人耳语者。只你有一帮天赋满满却缺乏经验的年轻球员，不论你现有的控卫是谁，换成保罗之后肯定更强。只要他们听命于控卫之神，就会变得越来越强。
[–]jaytee158 712 指標 1 天前
I can see the fit in Milwaukee but the cap dynamics are rough and it's ULTRA short-term
我觉得保罗很适合密尔沃基，不过他要是去了就会让薪资结构更加紊乱，而且这也只是份短工。
[–]Supersonics Shiva- 567 指標 1 天前
People keep saying it's short term as if it's a bad thing. Milwaukee really only needs/wants him short term anyways. He's fucking old. Father time WILL catch up to him.
The trick here for the Bucks is to not give up much of their future while still getting him.
超音速球迷：搞得像短工就很不好一样。反正密尔沃基对他的需要也只是短期的。他尼玛太老了。都要回家带娃了。
雄鹿的难处就在于得到保罗的同时，不必过分消耗球队的未来。
[–]Bucks buttstuff_magoo 318 指標 1 天前
If they can take Bledsoe with the picks it’d be nice. Bledsoe is a horrific fit with Giannis but too expensive to be on the bench for long periods
雄鹿球迷：如果雷霆可以接受布莱德索搭配选秀签，那就蛮好。布莱德索真的很不适合字母哥，可你要是让他长期坐板凳吧，那也太贵了。
[–]Thunder The_Grey_Wind 125 指標 1 天前
I don't like this trade for the Thunder if Bledsoe is involved. Another athletic defender and rim finisher who can't shoot. Don't need any more of those.
But I don't see this trade happening without Bledsoe if they want to make the money work reasonably.
雷霆球迷：要是有布莱德索的话，那我可不想我雷接受这种方式。再来一个运动能力强但是没篮子的防守人和篮下终结者？这种球员我们可太多了。
不过要是不加入布莱德索，还想让薪资匹配的话，我觉得这笔交易没有可能。
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来源：Reddit
编译：云长刮个痧